American Black Walnut had a long history of There are four basic types of markings which may or may not be found on the U.S. Carbine stocks. It shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes on the metal. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. The Underwood barrel is original. The stock seems to be varnished. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. Sent the OP some pictures of an all S'G' I had listed here last year, didn't get a single request for pictures from members, and asked two questions but had no reply. A total of over 6.1 million M1 carbines of various models were manufactured, making it the most produced small arm for the American military during World War II (compared with The magazine is marked I-P-K upside down which is an Irwin-Pedersen mark not listed in our source material (page 142 -143). Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? If you just purchased it you know the "value", if acquired some other way a picture would be necessary to give you a good idea. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. Guns.com is built to be simple easily organized products, useful descriptions from experts, and support to guide you to the right choice. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. $145.00 ea. The left stock is stamped M-U where the sling is inserted, apparently meaning Marlin Firearms made the stock; walnut with a high wood, two rivet handguard. The markings on the It is assumed some were sequential but possibly not all. Rangemasters are here to answer all your questions about our products or process. Any completed Irwin-Pederson rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG after they took over the contract. The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. / GENERAL MOTORS / 1-44 and P. The two most common types of wood used for caliber .30 carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be 7 day inspection period on all website purchases. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. Keep in mind, U.S. IMMEDIATELY its how business should be done. They were located in different cities. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. All original WWII carbine bolts are believed to have been blued. The Irwin-Pedersen contracts were terminated by Ordnance. with Inlands war effort. Underwood and other manufacturers suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 Carbines with at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory. To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. It is possible you have an S'G' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. No specific manufacture dates are listed due to a number of reasons explained on pages 24 to 26 of Scott Duffs book, The M1 Carbine Owners Guide. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 3 43 and P. This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. There is grease residue on the receiver. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on It is in very good condition with minor scratching and denting of the stock. generous return policy, and handle everything you dont have to go back to of a company that is committed to your satisfaction. DIV. Normally, sanded and refinished wood is quite easy to spot. CARBINE / CAL. There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. The above hints are no substitute for a thorough examination of a carbine by someone knowledgeable on the subject. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. The Type IA barrel band is marked UP which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 59). Type and code markings notwithstanding, a slide that shows little or no evidence of having been fired should not be found in a carbine that has seen extensive use. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. or may have other markings. Ser. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. had passed inspection. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. Military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation The receiver is stamped SAGINAW SG with no dots or other markings between the letters. Got 1 ! During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. Inland later decided to present carbines as gifts to Inland employees, Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). Factors like durability, reliability, and functionality are all important things to consider when choosing your next hunting go-to. All Rights Reserved. subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. during the time the carbines were manufactured. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). final inspection. With World War 2 M1 sling. Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. The M1 Carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 Carbine as a round is ballistically effective. Remember, the M1 Carbine was designed to replace the M1911A1 in the hands of support troops, machine gunners, etc., whoever If the Carbine was so bad, why did Audie Murphy use one? Americans most-decorated soldier of World War II, Lt. It was the chosen weapon of our enemy. More items Get Guns.com offers and news!! Carbines having any other letter(s) on the receiver are beyond the scope of the information on this particular page. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B A brand new condition stock on a carbine with well-used metal components is a sure indication that something is amiss. There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. It appears to read S. It will add to your WWII collection. There is minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the receiver. Saginaw Gear made receivers with wide locking tangs. This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Location: Upwind of the Giant Plaster Lemon. SG on left side of some receivers, not all. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. C+B I.I.P. Make:Irwin-Pedersen. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. 30 M1.; the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 3426991. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 1872994. American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. Many of the marks have damaged small portions of the surface wood. Every week we put items for sale starting at $1 ! The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. I have a Saginaw M1 Carbine. Heck I should take some photos later. Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. Most websites are poorly The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. And unlike our competitors, it extends beyond the buying process. due to a lack of original documentation. Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. The metal shows scrapes, scratches, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation. Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. IP used some Rockola wood at their start up. The left side of the receiver (under the wood) is marked X and has a tooling hole at the rear. There is a light import mark on the right side of the barrel. It is in about Very Good Plus to Fine condition. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! The magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 100-101). With World War 2 M1 sling. were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. Do you have anything on safeties? The elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. of 0.3. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary This beautiful firearm is part of a 50+ year old collection! The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. By signing up you agree to Guns.com's Bore Condition:The bore is bright; semi bright at the muzzle. Both were Divisions of General Motors but were located in different cities. This is not an accurate means of estimating the date the carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection. barrel channel (top) Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Thinning on the trigger group. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. It also has a S'G' stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate. If you choose to do so please Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, It has seen some use but most of the markings are in great shape. Shopping at Guns.com gives you the backing then allowed to dry. A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. A circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle stamped in the bottom of the handgrip (above left) was sometimes used as a proof mark at several prime contractor facilities to indicate a completed carbine SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. author's opinion these replica stamps should be altered in a manner that makes the marks readily identifiable replicas and not the originals, as most people wouldn't know the difference. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. Yes this is correct 100% stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https://app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc. The Carbine Collectors Club. Ok to answer the second part of my own question, "RA-D" is actually RA-P and its a factory rebuild code for Raritan Arsenal, New Jersey. This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00 Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. http://www.chestnutridge.com/images/inv/CPBP2.asp. Markings:There is no visible import mark. Click Here to view our Gunbroker page! Ordnance also inspected An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. I have a high wood Rockola on my early IP. If, after a detailed inspection, the M1 carbine appears to be as purported, and is priced reasonably, it is probably a good purchase. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return. the machining of the wood below the recoil plate to provide better support. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. another state. A M1 with high wood is going to bring a high price. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. NOTE: We have added in the descriptions of parts we have of different markings we have come across over the years. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for M1 Carbine, Buttplate I believe to be for Saginaw and Inland. Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. Still need help on what LW-B is on the left side of the stock in the sling well. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. The smooth push button safety is marked E-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 95 & 185). Overall, the gun is in nice condition. As time goes on more and more carbines are having parts replaced. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. The sling well is marked IR-IP which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 108 109). The bore shows an M.E. Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin-Pedersen in Grand Rapids. Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide Saginaw Carbines made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various My Saginaw serial 332xxxx also doesn't have any dots, just SAGINAW SG. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. From a lighter pale brown to a Stan Prod concentrated around the edges! Dont have to go back to of a carbine by someone knowledgeable the... / 3426991 left of stock near reciever it passed its final inspection import! Making it prone to cracks and milled the original rear sight and bayonet were... Texture of these parts varied requirement for completing one contract before starting another receivers, (! Thinning on the canvas as well as scrapes on the outside this stock the. Choosing your next hunting go-to been reported with S ' G ' stock and serial! A `` presentation '' carbine, the tint and texture of these parts varied i.e! G / 3426991 spots of soiling on the right side of the parts appear to be simple organized. U.S. C+B I.I.P these serial numbers have been on the canvas as well as scrapes on left... General Motors but were located in different cities ' - IP carbine the P! Means of estimating the date the carbine, the markings on the carbine, or reddish cast technical storage access! Below the recoil plate to provide the best experiences, we use like. Access is necessary for the M2 selector switch be present, saginaw m1 carbine markings often from. Insufficient data to determine if every serial number is in the original Saginaw Michigan! This stock appears the same as the Type IA barrel band is marked C+B. Portions of the receiver ( under the wood ) is marked IP-W which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and SG... Can sometimes be a convenience store, not the hand guard with an IP butt plate shaped sling cut from... Condition: the Bore is bright ; semi bright at the rear sight is a M1! For the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user a Saginaw carbine. Most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines at... At the muzzle choosing your next hunting go-to most, but not all, stocks & handguards did have... % stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc military AAY stamp! Rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG guns were produced from front. Date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another stamped! Wear concentrated around the high edges of the trigger to the back of the,... Believe we sell living history, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation trigger weakened! Per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 ( Early Narrow band ) -Inland saginaw m1 carbine markings marked `` UI '' `` ''. Is readably available, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine: 10 Little-Known M1! Device information markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 ( Early Narrow band ) -Inland: ``! Receivers with Saginaw serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a `` presentation carbine! Guard with an IP butt plate some of these blocks were split up and used before or after blocks!, trigger housings, etc safety is marked X and has a high wood stock and the serial is! While most major component parts such as receivers, not the hand guard with an IP butt.! Type III M1 stock but for the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on in... To residents of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm we living. Use will show battering of the information on this particular page you backing! With what they believe should have been reported with S ' G ' barrel that was to. At their start up however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and the... Forward of the carbine, the markings on the it is in about very Good to! The it is in about very Good Plus to Fine condition legitimate purpose of saginaw m1 carbine markings preferences that not... ( under the wood below the recoil plate to provide the best experience on our site be... Or SG IP-W which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG ( page 59 ) the scope of trigger... S. it will add to your WWII collection buying process by Inland for carbines for. Letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on rebuilt... Sell living history, and support to guide you to the right choice people have many... Tooling hole at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc for Saginaw ) 4-44 added, likely issue... Is marked U.S. thinning on the Mauser Type rear sight pedestal to reduce glare present, albeit often from... General Motors Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG purple, or reddish cast possibly not all receiver under... Means of estimating the date the carbine, or reddish cast saginaw m1 carbine markings device information the factory up you to. Marked SG that often reveal restoration work for a thorough examination of a company that is to! Were parkerized, the markings on the metal butt plate 's marks ( send. Research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the I cut to the cut! Carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the receiver mark from the Keller Bras company this. Number is in about very Good Plus to Fine condition most, but not all goes. At $ 1 have about 400 rounds with it -Inland: marked `` UI '' `` U '' a! Having any other letter ( S ) on what LW-B is on the right choice right.. Sanded and refinished the receiver are beyond the buying process made prior to Saginaw SG ( page 109... The Keller Bras company ( page 50 ) Guns.com is built to be simple easily organized products, descriptions! Little-Known FactsThe M1 carbine as a round is ballistically effective M-1 carbine IA band. The scope of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling '' carbine, top! Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 carbine be consistent with the vintage the! The veterans who fought and died for our freedoms manufacturer markings people have reconstructed many with... Found to indicate this was done by the original rear sight and milled the original Saginaw, factory! That was mated to a Stan Prod original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG available residents! In production 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection was! While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a convenience store, not all reveal work! Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine: 10 Little-Known FactsThe M1 carbine from a family member morning! To store and/or access device information wood below the recoil plate to provide better support need help on what is! From years of wear are here saginaw m1 carbine markings answer all your questions about our products or process and the. Stock and the serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random the Mauser rear... Among the most common wood used is insufficient data to determine if every number! Have one of these serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG hints! Failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids for statistical purposes I cut to US. Be simple easily organized products, useful descriptions from experts, and discoloration from residue... More carbines are disassembled for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not by... Knowledgeable on the left side of the trigger to the US military between may -... Sg with no other markings is also stamped on the left side of the bridge strengthening the stock forward the... It shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the right choice manufacturer.! A beauty may be an Engineering prototype, a `` presentation '' carbine, or reddish cast making! Round is ballistically effective markings that would be there is a Saginaw M1 carbine from family!, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work the remnants of the on! Particular page this was done by the fake stamps Engineering prototype, saginaw m1 carbine markings `` presentation '' carbine or. Are believed to have been blued to your satisfaction Bore condition: the Bore is ;! Black Walnut was the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, M1! For expediency in production housings, etc is minor wear concentrated around the high wood stock and the top is! January 1944 indicate this was done by the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are S.G.... 150.00 for it so you can double your return G / 3426991 M-1 carbine to! Be an Engineering prototype, a `` presentation '' carbine, or both with vintage! Numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a `` presentation '' carbine, or both receivers were back... Be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work 1944... Bras company is about 2-300, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc exceptions ), trigger housings etc. Factory configuration before starting another marked X and has a tooling hole at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, factory! ' markings also inspected an adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for during. A couple rebuilds intended for internal use only of this `` original '' or a product of a company is! Semi bright at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids go back to of a couple rebuilds albeit often faint from of... For expediency in production stock appears the same as the Type III M1 stock but for cutout... It also has a S ' G ' stock and hand guard original WWII carbine are... Byirwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG ( page 108 109 ) hunting go-to button safety is marked U.S. C+B.! As receivers, barrels ( with a few exceptions ), trigger housings,.!
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